All of this rings true to me! It is insane how high the markups have gotten on wine in restaurants. I did a poll with my audience about what intimidates them about wine, and the number 1 answer was price. 2nd: hard to understand labels.
Great takes. Especially think you nailed it on the restaurant offerings and pricing. It seems like even in bigger cities many restaurants still elect to regurgitate the same 5 mass market wines at a per glass cost that's about the same as a bottle. I even find that a lot of wine bars fail to offer interesting wines at reasonable prices, which feels like a glaring issue given that they have one job on that front. That said, I disagree that decent budget wines *can't* be found in grocery stores. You certainly may be better off going to a small wine shop where a trusted someone can guide your selection, but a lot of large grocery chains do have some great value picks, it just requires a little more sifting through the swill to find them. To apply your thinking on bringing memorable bottles to friends whenever you can, maybe doing the legwork to find those gems at the local supermarket and gifting those to people who probably won't go out of their way to a wine shop for their wine shopping is the answer.
I do think the financial challenge is particularly pertinent in America. I visit once or twice a year to see my family in-law and I'm always staggered at the price of wine. In a restaurant, even I will end up ordering a cocktail because I can't bring myself to spend $16 on a glass of Cab Sav. In Europe (even in expensive cities like Amsterdam) we are lucky that it's still possible to buy "affordable" wine (although I realise that's a relative term) and if you know what to look for it's more than drinkable. Anyway, I'm not really sure what my point is - just saying I hear you!
My one quibble (which you've heard a variation of before) with the "young people have never drunk wine" POV, is that while this is generally true, the "crisis" of the current moment stems from the fact that fewer 21-35 year old are drinking wine that those groups did in previous 21-35 year old groups of previous generations. So we *have* lost ground there, something we should at least try to counteract. And on top of that, much like the argument that "people have to have their a-ha moment" with fine wine, if we don't court them, make them want to show up in the first place, or keep the product somewhat top of mind, that eventual appreciation may never occur. and brands like Whiny Baby have had decent success when they target the group.
The very fact that so many of us "young bloods" to the wine writing scene all have such odd, idiosyncratic stories of how we cam to appreicate wine is kind of the elephant in the room, the evidence that the wine industry itself did little to entice us, it was just dumb luck. I'm not sure there will be enough of us with those stories to float wine in the future.
It definitely doesn't help that you can't go out to the bar and order a glass of wine that hasn't been open for six weeks at room temperature and isn't Yellowtail or w.e.. Honestly these days any time I do the things I was doing while out and about as a 20 something (aka going to dive bars or clubs etc), I still don't usually order wine for lack of good optionality and just a general vibe mismatch I think. I'm not sure there's any real way to address that unless the entire landscape shifted because it won't be profitable for most of those venues to carry and properly store better wine, and culturally there just isn't really a motivating factor to change it.
When I was 20-something and working a restaurant/bar, I also didn't know how to handle or store wine (and no one taught me.) I had no way of smelling to tasting a wine to know if it had gone bad, because I didn't like the smell or taste of wine when it was good! It's fascinating to me, looking back, how little I knew, understood, or appreicated about the product because it was completely absent from my life in my youth. So in that sense, it wasn't just my finances and practical consideration, but utter and complete lack of context with the beverage. This is where I think we *can* do better as a category. I don't have a magic bullet solution to it, but definitely want to encourage the industry to try things, vs. shrugging.
I knew you’d respond to this part and that is why this conversation is great! I truly think that wine will be okay and we will get them into it at some point. I truly feel extenuating circumstances has led them to not be able to afford it. Maybe I am wrong but I think the more cool things we do- like this- like what each of us has mentioned will trickle down. I also think parents of those young adults are a key market for us. I always suggest wine of the month to my customers who need gifts for their young adult kids. It gets them trying two wines we sell every month that are affordable and really interesting. We can get there I think!
Wine definitely was huge in my family my entire childhood and young adult life and we traveled to vineyards a bunch- but outside of family spending their money on it I just didn’t have the desire to on my own till later in my late 20s when I worked in wine retail. Then I was hooked and made the transition- but my life also slowed I moved to a cabin in the woods in northern lower Michigan so wine at home was a regular thing instead of driving 20 miles to town.
Hmmm, on this point, the point of coming form a family where wine was important and prevalent, that’s where many of us come from (though not myself.) And so we’re already “wine curious”, already have it top of mind even if it’s not our drink of choice yet. But we’re set up to cirlce back to it. What I fear is that becaue so many wine folks come from wine “backgrounds” (surrounded by it for one reason or another) we overly ignore the need to interest those who aren’t from similar backgrounds, who need to become wine curious before being able to take the next step of true blue wine afficiando, which is where aging up comes in.
But nevertheless, the income point is a salient and major one. Wine will struggle regardless if we can’t share the wealth in this country (and other countries) better than late stage capitalism has allowed for to date.
I am fortunate to have two Portuguese cafes in Wrexham and they gently correct my Portuguese which was learnt on Duolingo for 4 years.I can certainly have a decent conversation if they slow down.Portuguese wines are fantastic as is Portugal and it's people
I am part of our local village wine society and we meet once a month and sample six wines for a £5: per person.24 members with a waiting list.We take it in turns to present,people want to know about history,geography,science,back story of wine makers ,best value etc
Agree about the ridiculous prices for wines in restaurants,often with a 400% mark up for indifferent wines.If the wine list starts at £30 I just have tap water instead.
You are very lucky! That sounds like such an amazing wine society that you have there. I wish we had something similar near me. What a great way to explore wine and learn at the same time. And yes, the mark up is just absurd. Water, iced tea, beer, it is all much more enjoyable for me at those prices.
All of this rings true to me! It is insane how high the markups have gotten on wine in restaurants. I did a poll with my audience about what intimidates them about wine, and the number 1 answer was price. 2nd: hard to understand labels.
Bravo!
Thank you.
Great takes. Especially think you nailed it on the restaurant offerings and pricing. It seems like even in bigger cities many restaurants still elect to regurgitate the same 5 mass market wines at a per glass cost that's about the same as a bottle. I even find that a lot of wine bars fail to offer interesting wines at reasonable prices, which feels like a glaring issue given that they have one job on that front. That said, I disagree that decent budget wines *can't* be found in grocery stores. You certainly may be better off going to a small wine shop where a trusted someone can guide your selection, but a lot of large grocery chains do have some great value picks, it just requires a little more sifting through the swill to find them. To apply your thinking on bringing memorable bottles to friends whenever you can, maybe doing the legwork to find those gems at the local supermarket and gifting those to people who probably won't go out of their way to a wine shop for their wine shopping is the answer.
I do think the financial challenge is particularly pertinent in America. I visit once or twice a year to see my family in-law and I'm always staggered at the price of wine. In a restaurant, even I will end up ordering a cocktail because I can't bring myself to spend $16 on a glass of Cab Sav. In Europe (even in expensive cities like Amsterdam) we are lucky that it's still possible to buy "affordable" wine (although I realise that's a relative term) and if you know what to look for it's more than drinkable. Anyway, I'm not really sure what my point is - just saying I hear you!
My one quibble (which you've heard a variation of before) with the "young people have never drunk wine" POV, is that while this is generally true, the "crisis" of the current moment stems from the fact that fewer 21-35 year old are drinking wine that those groups did in previous 21-35 year old groups of previous generations. So we *have* lost ground there, something we should at least try to counteract. And on top of that, much like the argument that "people have to have their a-ha moment" with fine wine, if we don't court them, make them want to show up in the first place, or keep the product somewhat top of mind, that eventual appreciation may never occur. and brands like Whiny Baby have had decent success when they target the group.
The very fact that so many of us "young bloods" to the wine writing scene all have such odd, idiosyncratic stories of how we cam to appreicate wine is kind of the elephant in the room, the evidence that the wine industry itself did little to entice us, it was just dumb luck. I'm not sure there will be enough of us with those stories to float wine in the future.
But great stuff, Kate. Much to chew on here.
It definitely doesn't help that you can't go out to the bar and order a glass of wine that hasn't been open for six weeks at room temperature and isn't Yellowtail or w.e.. Honestly these days any time I do the things I was doing while out and about as a 20 something (aka going to dive bars or clubs etc), I still don't usually order wine for lack of good optionality and just a general vibe mismatch I think. I'm not sure there's any real way to address that unless the entire landscape shifted because it won't be profitable for most of those venues to carry and properly store better wine, and culturally there just isn't really a motivating factor to change it.
When I was 20-something and working a restaurant/bar, I also didn't know how to handle or store wine (and no one taught me.) I had no way of smelling to tasting a wine to know if it had gone bad, because I didn't like the smell or taste of wine when it was good! It's fascinating to me, looking back, how little I knew, understood, or appreicated about the product because it was completely absent from my life in my youth. So in that sense, it wasn't just my finances and practical consideration, but utter and complete lack of context with the beverage. This is where I think we *can* do better as a category. I don't have a magic bullet solution to it, but definitely want to encourage the industry to try things, vs. shrugging.
I knew you’d respond to this part and that is why this conversation is great! I truly think that wine will be okay and we will get them into it at some point. I truly feel extenuating circumstances has led them to not be able to afford it. Maybe I am wrong but I think the more cool things we do- like this- like what each of us has mentioned will trickle down. I also think parents of those young adults are a key market for us. I always suggest wine of the month to my customers who need gifts for their young adult kids. It gets them trying two wines we sell every month that are affordable and really interesting. We can get there I think!
Wine definitely was huge in my family my entire childhood and young adult life and we traveled to vineyards a bunch- but outside of family spending their money on it I just didn’t have the desire to on my own till later in my late 20s when I worked in wine retail. Then I was hooked and made the transition- but my life also slowed I moved to a cabin in the woods in northern lower Michigan so wine at home was a regular thing instead of driving 20 miles to town.
Hmmm, on this point, the point of coming form a family where wine was important and prevalent, that’s where many of us come from (though not myself.) And so we’re already “wine curious”, already have it top of mind even if it’s not our drink of choice yet. But we’re set up to cirlce back to it. What I fear is that becaue so many wine folks come from wine “backgrounds” (surrounded by it for one reason or another) we overly ignore the need to interest those who aren’t from similar backgrounds, who need to become wine curious before being able to take the next step of true blue wine afficiando, which is where aging up comes in.
But nevertheless, the income point is a salient and major one. Wine will struggle regardless if we can’t share the wealth in this country (and other countries) better than late stage capitalism has allowed for to date.
I am fortunate to have two Portuguese cafes in Wrexham and they gently correct my Portuguese which was learnt on Duolingo for 4 years.I can certainly have a decent conversation if they slow down.Portuguese wines are fantastic as is Portugal and it's people
I am part of our local village wine society and we meet once a month and sample six wines for a £5: per person.24 members with a waiting list.We take it in turns to present,people want to know about history,geography,science,back story of wine makers ,best value etc
Agree about the ridiculous prices for wines in restaurants,often with a 400% mark up for indifferent wines.If the wine list starts at £30 I just have tap water instead.
You are very lucky! That sounds like such an amazing wine society that you have there. I wish we had something similar near me. What a great way to explore wine and learn at the same time. And yes, the mark up is just absurd. Water, iced tea, beer, it is all much more enjoyable for me at those prices.